In my first post, I referred to the crucial alternative as to the possibility of salvation between 'universalism' and 'exclusivism'. This comes down to a stark choice between two statements:
Pope Eugene IV stated ex cathedra in 1441:
"The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
On the other hand, the Second Vatican Council proclaimed in the decree Unitatis redintegratio that salvation indeed is possible outside the Roman Catholic Church and that sacraments are effective towards salvation for those who remain in 'separated churches and Communities' and do not return to the visible unity with the Catholic Church before the end of their lives:
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”
Contrary to those who harbor illusions as to the possible 'Counterreform' apace under Benedict XVI--this quote appears verbatim in last week's document of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church".
No council may go contrary to the deposit of the faith, as expressed in the infallible statements of the popes and earlier councils approved by the popes. Does the Unitatis redintegratio decree only express but not distort the meaning of the deposit of the faith as stated in Eugene IV's infallible statement? The quoted document of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith cites an important announcement made by John XXIII in his opening Address to the Vatican II council:
"The deposit of faith itself and the truths contained in our venerable doctrine are one thing, but the manner in which they are annunciated is another, provided that the same fundamental sense and meaning is maintained."
My personal conclusion is that the teachings of the Vatican II allow the interpretation that it is not necessary to convert to the Roman Catholic Church to be saved. This is, in fact, how many of the prominent hierarchs understand this doctrine. Several quotes, taken from the materials posted by Brothers Dimond on their website www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com will illustrate this.
In an interview given to the Italian newspaper Adista, Cardinal Walter Kasper, Prefect of Vatican Council for Promoting Christian Unity, stated that since Vatican II "we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a 'return', by which the others would 'be converted' and return to being Catholics." (February 26, 2001)
Cardinal Ratzinger directly contradicted Eugene IV's unequivocal statement that the Jews would not be saved as long as they remained outside the Catholic Church when he expressed his belief in an interview to the Zenit agency that "a Jew, and this is true for believers of other religions, does not need to know or acknowledge Christ as the Son of God in order to be saved." (September 5, 2000)
Finally, John Paul II openly denied the necessity of entering the Catholic Church for salvation since, in his words: "The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church" (Redemptoris Missio #10, December 7, 1990).
The latter two quotes are taken from the online version of the book by Bro. Michael Dimond and Bro. Peter Dimon, The Truth about What Really Happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II
In the next post, I will look at the tragedy of Holocaust from the perspective of salvation of the many victims' souls.
In Christo
Peter
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17 comments:
The fact of the matter is that Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation, and those who deny it are heretics incurring the sentence of ipso facto excommunication.
WARNING: This book The Truth about What Really Happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II is written neither by Catholics nor Benedictines. For proof, go to the Benedictines' website, and under "or a Region:", select "North America", click find, scroll down, and you will see:
Holy Family Monastery
Fillmore, NY
This "monastery" is not affiliated
with the Roman Catholic Church
or the Benedictine Order.
[Congr: ---]
The Dimond "brothers" are outside the Catholic Church and thus hypocritically preach "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." They also unfoundedly claim their website is the most frequently visited traditional Catholic website. For a reputable traditionalist Catholic organization inside the Church, visit Una Voce, and for a cogent Catholic refutation of some of the Dimond "brothers"' claims, visit Dimonds Refuted by Dr. Patrick Walsh of Waterford City, Ireland. Finally, pray that the Dimond "brothers" and people like them be converted to the one, true, "holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church."
The Brothers left the Benedictine monastery of Vatican 2 and have converted. They do mention that on their website. That is why they are not listed ?! The Roman Catholic Church you are speaking of is The Conterfeit one of Ben 16. These Benedictine orders are Novus Ordo and not true anyone can see that. The Brothers' monastery must be the only one that is Truly Catholic and Benedictine.
Pati, why do you trust false prophets?
Because when you know your faith you are supposed to recognize the difference between a bad tree from a good tree. A false prophet bears bad fruits. That is how I can tell a false prophet from a true one. Just look at the fruits which the tree bears. Jesus taught us how to recognize a false prophet from a true one. Look at the fruit it bears. That's the proof and that is why. A good tree yeilds good fruit. Did Vatican 2 and Paul Vl and JOhn 2 and BEN 16, protestanism, Arianism, the western schism etc...yeild good fruit? Did they follow the teachings of Jesus or try to teach another Gospel ? Did any good come out of it? (the good fruits that follow) You should be able to answer that one on your own.
Pati, Catholics believe in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church against which "the gates of hell shall not prevail." From where do you have the authority to condemn the Church Christ founded based upon, in your personal judgment, how much fruit it has borne? Also, how can you help the Church bear more fruit if you, like the Dimond "brothers," separate yourself from it like the schismatic Protestants did?
This is the last time I am posting because you are stubborn and full of pride. It is getting in the way in letting the love of the truth coming into your ears and reaching your heart. An example of true Humbleness is Our Lady. We should learn from this. She trusted God and didn't ask questions. She trusted Him with all her heart. Of course she was without sin but we shold follow her example. Open your eyes Geremia. Open your eyes and your heart. Does that not sound familiar ?
Vatican 2 is not the Catholic Church. It is the false one eclipsing the True one. Ecliped means hidden. Like an Eclipse it will be temporary. Hell has never prevailed over the Catholic Church. It has tried but never succeeded. Only a remnant will be saved. The remnant of True Catholics who refused to be lead astray by liers. Are you calling Our Lord a lier ? As you are speaking, you are also calling the Mother of God a lier. At la Salette and again at Fatima, She did say that "the Catholic Church will be in eclipse. Rome will loose the faith and be the seat of the antichrist." Who sits in Rome? The Virgin doesn't have to give all the details because Catholics are supposed to know their faith. An antipope is an antichrist who preaches the gospel of the Devil which is not in line with catholic teaching or scripture.
YOu are an example of a bad fruit and in conclusion not Catholic. According to Catholic teaching, you put yourself out of the Church.
I always felt something was wrong before I found MHFM. How can A POPE (if he has Christ's light and instructed to teach all nations) say that Jewish don't have to convert and it's okay they continue to wait for the messiah ?! I always had a problem with that. A person who talks that way doesn't believe himself that Jesus is the messiah and the Son of God. St. Peter's faith never failed. Jesus prayed so Peter's faith will not fail. St. Peter converted 1000 Jews after receiving the HOly Ghost on Pentacost. Do not talk to me about Protestanism, I know very well what it stands for. YOu are the one that is protesting against the Catholic Church not me.
I feel sorry for you. When the truth sets you free, your heart feels more light and your eyesight becomes stronger. If I listen to you I will be led astray. I look at all the facts before I put my faith in what someone is saying. Jesus says to test the spirits because too many false christs are out there. I take time to study True Catholic teaching based on the Gospel and tradition, councils by infallible True Popes, and so on...What have you done ? Letting the Devil lead you astray by his clever plan using the Vatican 2 and it's false popes. IF you have studied any History at all, you will see that at the time of the Western Schism, a few number of true Catholics put their faith in God and did not follow the false popes of that time. Which is exactly what I am doing. Closing churches and taking away the true Mass and not having one to attend does not make me loose my Faith. The children of Fatima at the time of WOrld War 1, their Churches closed they did not loose their faith. They built an alter for Our Lady in the Cova, prayed the Rosary very hard and were faithful in their words to continue to go there for the apparitions. They trusted God with all their heart. How humble and just is the faith of a child ! We have to become like little children. I trust God and I know the Catholic Church's eclipse will end one day and a true pope will reign again and return all things to Christ. I pray God shortens the time because so many are going to hell. If you don't believe that either, well, you are calling the Fatima children liers as well. God help you and so many more who let themselves be lead astray by liers. As for me, well that I persevere til the end and I don't let myself give in to faithless blind people like you.
Pati, not once did I say the Church has not been in a bad state since Vatican II; not once did I say I prefer the Novus Ordo mass to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite; not once have I supported Modernism. But does "eclipse" mean nonexistence? No, "eclipse" means our Church lacks some light, the Light that is Christ. It means our Church, comprised of sinners, needs prayer, not schism.
The Church you are talking about in a bad state is the false Church of Vatican 2, the whore of Babylon, prophesied will arise in the last days to eclipse the True one. The true one will be hidden from the people who are of no faith and of bad will. The truth will go to Catholics of Good will, the ones seeking because they love the Truth. ( Our Lord's words Seek
and ye Shall find.)
YOu are blind to your own words. Don't you hear yourself ? You do not support modernism ? What are you doing in the Vatican 2 church anyway ? By your actions and not your words you support modernism by staying in V2 false church. This is the one in a bad state. It is not the Catholic Church wake up! New ORder mess never was a valid mass to begin with. It is a false protestant worship.
The True Catholic Church which is in eclipse and you refuse to convert to, has never been in a bad state and never lacked any light. THIS is impossible ! Christ's Church cannot teach error ! You are a heretic and a non-catholic.
It is your vatican 2 church that lacks any light . It doesn't have it at all and never did to begin with !
You have been deceived.
YOu cannot be with the Devil and God at the same time. It's time to choose before it is too late.
Prayer without faith does not please God. Meaning you cannot receive sanctifying grace being in this unfaithful state.
It is like planting a seed which doesn't bring any good fruit. Why , because the seed was a bad one.(Just not good enough, just of bad will)
Good luck to you.
Dear Geremia,
If I can't say anything to wake you up, then I am wasting my time trying again. God's punishment for blind faith is keeping that person in it. I see it all around me. If this is the case, then I won't go against His will.
If refuted already 3 times , I believe I am supposed to stop after the 2nd rebuke.(as St. Paul stated AVOID)
Saddened,
Pati
The MHFM is the only true Catholic Church, huh? Doesn't it only consist of two biological brothers?
You might as well go follow "Pope" Michael or one of the other Anti-Pope whose followers you can count on one hand.
Seriously? Two individuals who are considered rather eccentric, irrational, and troublesome by the rest of the traditionalist Catholic world even most other sedevacantists! are the only thing that is left of Christ's Church?
How pitiful.
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
Dean of the Faculty of Philosophy, University Pontifical Regina Apostolorum, Rome in his office today morning said he was familiar with the text of the dogma Cantate Domino and he would endorse it in public.
Fr. Rafael Pascual said he and other Legionaries of Christ priests took an oath in Church to be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church and he showed me on his computer the text of this oath.
He took exception to a report (1) I e-mailed him which indicated that the Legionaries of Christ priests have not affirmed the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Fr. Pascual who is the Director of the Master of Science and Faith Institute knew that the dogma on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Cantate Domino (2) was in accord with Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) (3), Dominus Iesus 20 (4) and other Magisterial text.
CONTINUED
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html#links
CONTINUED
The Church also affirms it may be mentioned that non Catholics can be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. However the Church Fathers, popes and Councils always new that these cases were implicit and so did not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are only known to God and we would not meet any such case in person. Also no Magisterial text claims that they are explicitly known to us. -Lionel Andrades
1.
LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST PRIESTS IN ROME DO NOT DENY THAT THEY AFFIRM AND TEACH THE SECULAR, LIBERAL INTERPRETATION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA
SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/12/legionaries-of-christ-priests-in-rome.html#links
2.
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-, Wikipedia, extra ecclesiam nulla salus
3.
Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.-Lumen Gentium 14
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7
4.
Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”. This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.- Dominus Iesus 20
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html#links
CATHOLIC CULTURE PROVIDES A DEFINITION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
Catholic Culture has a definition of extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says ‘no one who culpably refuses to become and remain a member of the Catholic Church can be saved’. However a glance at the text of the dogma shows that there is no such reference. Catholic Culture then says ‘all who reach their eternal destiny are saved through the Catholic Church’-the dogma does not say this. ' Even though they may not have lived as professed Roman Catholics’, the dogma does not make this claim.
EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
Outside the Church there is no salvation. Solemnly defined doctrine that says that no one who culpably refuses to become and remain a member of the Catholic Church can be saved. Positively this means that all who reach their eternal destiny are saved through the Catholic Church, of which Christ is the visible head. This is true even though they nay not have lived as professed Roman Catholics (Fourth Lateran Council, A,D, 1215, Denzinger 802). -Catholic Culture
Here is the ‘solemn’ dogma defined by three Councils on Outside the Church there is no Salvation (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
• “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) – Catholicism.org
-Lionel Andrades
___________________________________
Catholic Culture suggests those who know about the Church and yet do not enter is the only ordinary means of salvation and these cases are known to us
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-those-who.html
CATHOLIC CULTURE SUGGESTS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE OR THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE EXPLICITLY KNOWN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-that-those.html
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-those-who.html#links
Catholic Culture suggests those who know about the Church and yet do not enter is the only ordinary means of salvation and these cases are known to us
According to Vatican Council II the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for all. This is the defacto and explicit means.
False Ecumenism is based on irrational non Catholic interpretations contrary to Vatican Council II, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the statements of popes and saints. It suggests those who know about the Catholic Church and do not enter is the only ordinary means of salvation.It also assumes that these cases are known to us.
Is 'Ecumenism' a Bad Word? by Matt C. Abbott in Catholic Culture suggests ‘they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ’ do not enter it ’(LG 16) is the ordinary means of salvation and the only means of salvation. Catholic Culture also implies that these cases are explicit and we can personally know such cases.
The Catechism quotes Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium on this subject: “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church” (nn. 846-847).-Abbot,Catholic Culture.
Let us analyse Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.(1)The passages emphasized in yellow tells us that Catholic faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation for all. The passages in red mention those who are lost and are known only to God. The passage in green mentions those who can be saved and are known only to God and this passage does not claim that these non Catholics are de facto known to us or that they are exceptions to the passage in yellow or the dogma.The passage in yellow is defacto and that in green is de jure. When we read magisterial texts like the one above we have to use the defacto-dejure distinction otherwise there will be confusion. If you consider the passage in green as defacto it would contradict the passage in yellow.
Here is Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II analysed in the same way (2).The text emphasized in yellow tells us that Catholic faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation for all. The passage in red mentions those who are lost and are known only to God. The passage in green mentions those who can be saved and are known only to God and this passage does not claim that these non Catholics are de facto known to us or that they are exceptions to the passage in yellow or the dogma.
The passage in yellow is defacto and that in green is de jure. When we read magisterial texts like the one above we have to use the defacto-dejure distinction otherwise there will be confusion. If you consider the passage in green as defacto it would contradict the passage in yellow.
Catholics seminarians who study Philosophy for two years are taught the Principle of Non Contradiction and are familiar with the defacto-dejure logic. If the passage in green is defacto and explicitly known to us as Catholic Culture,Trinity Communications and EWTN suggest, it would contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction. Even a Catholic layman would know that this is irrational. -Lionel Andrades
CONTINUED
continued
_______________________________________
1.
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart… Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own...
2.
7. This missionary activity derives its reason from the will of God, "who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:45), "neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it." Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity…
CATHOLIC CULTURE SUGGESTS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE OR THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE EXPLICITLY KNOWN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-that-those.html
MEDUGORJE BANS BOOK IN WHICH JESUS SAYS CHURCH IS NEGLECTING MISSION AND PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL TO PROTECT ITS PROPERTY AND INTERESTS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/medugorje-bans-book-in-which-jesus-says.html
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
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