How to Use the Magisterium? Responding to a Critique

Predictably, the discussion with PJP shifted to the question of the validity of Vatican II documents and actually my first post "Where Is the Catholic Church" got quoted! Here follows the continuation of my exchange with the host of the blog Recapturing the Catholic Patrimony:

PJP said...

In your comments you question the validity of baptism of desire (which lies within the tradition of the Church as form of the sacrament of baptism) and you read/interpret the Council of Florence out of context (out of the corpus of Catholic thought and interpretation of the EENS dogma), placing such a statement above later statements reiterating EENS. It seems you have placed yourself as the arbiter and interpreter of the magisterium. This is quite dangerous, and I’m sincerely concerned for you.

You seem to frequently employ the term “exclusive salvation” as some “traditional message” or teaching of the Church. But is your rendition of exclusivism truly an aspect of Catholic Tradition? What do you mean by such a term? You state on your blog: “Let's face it: there are only two alternatives when it comes to salvation--either God accepts all the people of good will regardless of the faith they profess about Him or He accepts only those who hold the one acceptable faith. So it all comes down to the choice between universal salvation or exclusive salvation.” Peter Albert, this is what is known as a false dichotomy – a false option set up which is not consonant with Catholic thought. You do this again and again in your comments, making the salvation matter a black and white issue. Yes, ALL salvation come to the world through the Catholic Church (all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body, CCC 846), but the grace of salvation which emanates from the Church reaches people in both ordinary (sacraments) and extraordinary (ways unknown) means. The latter is unknown to us as noted in the Catechism no. 848. But in my estimation you probably don’t accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

Furthermore, you tell Wendy that she deserves to be “served the wealth of Catholic dogma.” I agree with you that all Catholics need to know and understand Catholic dogma and that much of it has been twisted or hidden today. Yet WHO is to do the serving? Are we to serve ourselves or are we to look to those God has placed in places of authority – the Magisterium (See. Matt. 23)? I’m not pushing for magisterial positivism (“Well, they say so, so it must be true.”), for I encourage a critical study of the faith in the context of Tradition, examining the current crisis we are in, but you’re taking the EENS matter into your own hands, divorcing in from the living magisterium of Christ’s Church.

What do you think about the Holy Office’s response to the Feeney issue as posted by Matt above? This is pre-Vatican II. Do you accept it as authoritative? You accept the Council of Florence as authoritative but you deny the same level of authority to Vatican II. Why is that?

On your blog you state: “The church of the Vatican II then is no longer the safe haven of salvation.” Yet you never answer the title of the post, “Where is the Catholic Church?” Where is it, Peter?

Peter, you also misinterpret Vatican II’s Unitatis Redintegratio. It does not say that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church contra the sacred dogma of faith. It simply says that they are elements of the Church are found in protestant and orthodox communities and those Catholic elements can lead one to salvation. Hence, the elements are Catholic and connected to the one Mystical Body of Christ, noting that salvation still comes from the One True Church, the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. It seems like you’re looking for contradictions that aren’t there.

You fail to quote the next section of UR no. 3 which clarifies the earlier section you take out of context. Here is the clarification:

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college ALONE, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be FULLY incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.

This blog does not preach universal salvation or your stringent idea of exclusivism, but it does recognize the entire Magisterium of the Church. You are wrenching things out of context, Peter, and this has led you to come to conclusions that are not consonant with the Faith of our Fathers.

All the best in Christ,
PJP

PS: On a last note, I saw that you link to the Holy Family Monastery of the Diamond Brothers. Please beware. Run away as fast as you can. These guys are in grave and obstinate error.
July 24, 2007 2:11 PM

Peter Albert said...
Dear PJP,

Unless we argue issues, we will call names--you managed to call the Dimonds 'dangerous' while earlier you stated that 'certainly' Sungenis believes in the necessity of sacrament of baptism.

Dear PJP, you imply that I distort the magisterium by imputing me the position of 'an arbiter', and yet note that I responded to each of your questions and theses (such as Romans 2:14-16 or 1 Timothy 2:4) by reference to traditional Catholic sources.

And I'll do the same to tackle the infamous Protocol 122/49, Suprema haec sacra. Well-known theologian of the time (and supporter of the position expressed in the Protocol) John (sic! should read Joseph) Clifford Fenton said the following on the relevance of the letter to the dogma of EENS in his book The Catholic Church and Salvation, published in 1958 (p. 103):

"This letter, known as Suprema haec sacra [Protocol 122/49], ... is an authoritative, though obviously not infallible document. That is to say, the teachings in Suprema haec sacra are not to be accepted as infallibly true on the authority of this particular document."

I agree with one point in the Suprema haec sacra:

"the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is nosalvation outside the Church. However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it.”

Since you imply that I am prejudiced against the recent pronouncements on EENS, I'll supply the 20-th century Pope, Pius XII's' statements:

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laverof regeneration and profess the true faith.”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration."

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis (#27), 1950: “Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter ofa few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the RomanCatholic Church are one and the same. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation."

Do you see, PJP, where I got the expression with which to address Mr. Sungenis' presentation? However, since I could be branded a self-styled 'arbiter' of the magisterium, I'll leave those quotes up there without a comment for you to figure out whether in fact Pius XII condemned the heresy of Feeneyism.

Let me address another of your concerns up front. You are asserting that the choice I posit 'either God accepts all the people of good will regardless of the faith they profess about Him or He accepts only those who hold the one acceptable faith' is a false dichotomy. Again, I must resort to a quote that actually supports only one alternative of the two:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance; for there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit, their glory is equal, their majesty coeternal...and in this Trinity there is nothing first or later, nothing greater or less, but all three persons are coeternal and coequal with one another, so that in every respect, as has already been said above, both unity in Trinity, and Trinity in unity must be worshipped. Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity.“But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man... This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

This reiterates the Athanasian Creed, and is the unchanging expression of the Catholic faith.I hope that I'll get fair treatment of the quotes I put up for defence of my position and that you state your position as well instead of warning of the danger of certain doctrines or people.Peter

July 24, 2007 2:45 PM