Following Cardinal Levada's example when he commented that the recent document of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith was not actually meant to be read so widely outside the Catholic Church, I would follow a similar principle when applying the dogma of Outside the Church There Is No Salvation. To my mind, we as Catholics should sort out our understanding as to WHAT saves us in the Catholic faith and WHAT makes the Catholic Church 'a safe haven of salvation'. On the other hand, in our discussions with those outside the Church, we should definitely focus on the problems in salvation in various non-Catholic religions and stress that only the Catholic Church has the fulness of means of salvation.
Even if many believe that desire for entry into the Catholic Church could be effective for salvation, they themselves must admit that such a situation would not apply to those who are presented the clear arguments as to the insufficiency of their non-Catholic religions and the fulness of the Catholic faith and means of grace. Those would not be 'invincibly ignorant' any more.
So while sorting out the meaning of the dogma of Outside the Church There Is No Salvation is important for strengthening the faith of Catholics, the pastoral application is about another issue: what keeps the non-Catholics from seeing the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith.
I am not going to give up on a number of points that are very relevant for this issue:
a. as I tried to indicate in the discussion of Session VI of Trent and following St. Paul in the Letter to Romans, God IS NOT the one to keep people from coming to the Catholic Church--the Holy Ghost has been promised to drive the Church's mission.
b. many have rightly implied that we Catholics may be the source of scandal to our non-Catholic neighbors and friends, and thus would be guilty of keeping them from entering the Kingdom. This danger is in my estimation far greater than the excessive zeal in bringing home the need for returning to the Faith. It probably goes without saying that if more Catholics took their faith seriously, more non-Catholics would take this proposition seriously. I live in Europe and the fact that in countries like France or Britain, the number of conversions to Islam exceeds that of conversions to Catholicism is telling--the Moslems are certainly far more serious than Catholics or Protestants about the duties of their faith.
c. finally, the issue seems a bit misplaced altogether. Prior to the 'Spirit' of Vatican II, the danger of hell was a common concern of preachers in the Catholic Church--and many saints converted hundreds, if not thousands of listeners (including many lukewarm Catholics) by stressing the seriousness of eternal separation from God. I'm not proposing that any lay Catholic should suddenly turn into a preacher--the opposite, I'm suggesting that the whole process needs to start, as with Augustine, in our own hearts. Once we take hell seriously, others will take notice of our changed lives.
From that perspective, the real question is not "am I in or out" but "am I on the road to heaven or hell". As Trent stated, reiterating hundreds of years of Tradition, penitence is both necessary before baptism and for fallen Catholics who need sacramental penance. And if we should concentrate on any line from Session VI of the Council of Trent in our discussions with non-Catholics, why don't we notice this all-important call to all of us, Catholic and non-Catholic: "Do penance!"
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Hi! We are sedes too, and we have exposed the Dimonds for their sacrilegious and heretical reception of sacraments from heretics. They have refused to debate me for over a half year to this date as the cowards they are! Hope to hear from you! Please read this and tell me what you think!
http://www.catholic-saints.net/dogma/#about-sacraments-from-heretics-and-prayer-in-communion-with-heretics
http://www.catholic-saints.net/heretics/most-holy-family-monastery-exposed.php
Take care,
Eli
prophetswilllive@gmail.com
Monday, June 20, 2011
THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF- Fr.George Puthoor
Second Catholic priest in Rome affirms Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, on extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there is no salvation)
A second priest in Rom within a few weeks affirms Cantate Domino, Council of Florence pointing out that there is no baptism of desire that we can personally know of.
A Rossiminian priest from South India Fr.George Puthoor said yesterday, Sunday morning, that there is no baptism of desire that we can know of.
He was speaking with me at the Basilica Santi Ambrogio e Carlo, Via del Corso, Rome where he was to offer Holy Mass in Italian at 12 p.m on Trinity Sunday.He gave me permission to quote him on this blog.
Since the cases of non-Catholic saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are de facto unknown to us and can only be accepted in principle it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus he observed.
If there is no case of the baptism of desire or implicit faith that we know of then Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma Cantate Domino.
The secular media hype and those of the liberals have claimed that Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II has changed church teaching with refrence to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Their claim is that every one does not have to enter the Church since there could be non Catholics saved with invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.This is the claim of Wikipedia on the Internet, Catholic Answers and the Pontifical Universities and seminaries in Rome and abroad.They could quote Pope John Paul II on ‘silent apostasy’ in the Church, as if, they are not a part of it.
So when EWTN says everyone does not have to enter the Church to avoid Hell it is irrational. Since EWTN implies the baptism of desire is de facto known to us.
There is also no Magisterial text to support this position.
continued
continued
Since we do not know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance Fr. George Puthoor is getting rid of another modernist sacred cow- the lie about a priest, Leonard Feeney.
When Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there is no baptism of desire (that we know of) he was correct. There is no de facto baptism of desire that we can know of because of the very nature of baptism of desire. It is de facto only for God and never de facto known to us.
Fr.Leonard Feeney taught: everyone needed the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith) for salvation – and there were no exceptions, de facto.
He was affirming Cantate Domino. So how could he be excommunicated for heresy?
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 refers to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching. The dogma Cantate Domino indicates all Jews in Boston ( and other non Catholics) need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
With Vatican Council II and Fr.Leonard Feeney ‘out of the way’ we are back to the centuries-old intrpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The centuries old teaching of the popes and saints is affirmed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church 846(Outside the Church no Salvation) says all people need to enter the Church as ‘through a door’. This does not conflict with CCC846 also saying all those who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church i.e. there are those 1) saved explicitly with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and there are those saved 2) implicitly through the baptism of desire etc. and which is known only to God.
Fr. George Puthoor is the second Catholic priest in Rome who within a few weeks has affirmed Cantate Domino, which the Church has not retracted through any Magisterial document.. Earlier Fr. Francesco Giordano an Italian diocesan priest said the same.
Unlike these Catholic priests, the American sedevacantists Most Holy Family Monastery, NY, assume that the baptism of desire is known to us in the present times. They seem unaware that it can only be accepted in principle. It can only be a concept for us and real for God. So it does not contradict Cantate Domino. The sedevacantists reject the baptism of desire. This is heresy. They could be correct though, in saying that Catholic clergy, educational institutions and websites are in heresy and general apostasy on the issue of outside the church there is no salvation. .Since they deny Cantate Domino because they believe, like the sedevacantists, in a de facto baptism of deny known to us personally.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/there-is-no-baptism-of-desire-that-we.html
MOST HOLY FAMILY MONASTERY SEDEVACANTISTS CONSIDER BAPTISM OF DESIRE DE FACTO AND KNOWABLE IN THE PRESENT TIME
There is a post by the sedevacantist Most Holy Family Monastery (MHFM) criticizing a priest who says that a person can be saved with the baptism of water if God chooses and that all such cases are hypothetical for us. (Traditionalist-sedevacantist priest, Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, denies the salvation dogma By Bro. Peter Dimond, O.S.B.)
Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 18, quoting from Fr. Tanquery with approval: “Necessity of means, however, is not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In certain particular circumstances, for example, in the case of the invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership in the Church can be supplied by the desire for this membership. It is not necessary that this be explicitly present; it can be included in a willingness and readiness to fulfill the will of God. In this way those who are outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.”
This does not mean that everyone does not have to de facto enter the Church formally, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, for salvation. (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).
The problem is that the MHFM considers the Baptism of Desire as de facto and knowable in the present times and so it contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, for them, which says there are no exceptions, and everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation.
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Well, I guess we now know why Fr. Vaillancourt loves baptism of desire so much. It’s because Fr. Vaillancourt believes in salvation outside the Church and is not even Catholic. For a time he even had a warning about our material at the back of his chapel; but, as we see above, it’s quite clear whose material one must be on guard against. Fr. Vaillancourt typifies the “traditionalist” and sedevacantist priests who deny the salvation dogma.
The Baptism of desire is always hypothetical for us and de facto only for God.
We know that the Baptism of desire can only be accepted in principle ( dejure) and is never de facto for us so how can it be an exception ?
The MHFM states
‘ that there is baptism of desire in any way, shape or form (see the book for more details). On page 17 Vaillancourt indicates that Buddhists, pagans and Muslims could be saved, and that such an idea isn’t ruled out by Catholic teaching:
Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 17: “Are there any more ‘good faith’ pagans in existence? Is it possible for the Communists of China or the faithful adherents of Buddhism and Mohammedism of the Near and Far East to either have never heard the Gospel, or else had the Gospel presented to them in an erroneous light?... Can the Chinese Communist, or the Indian Buddhist or the Pakistani Muslim be included in such a consideration [of invincible ignorance]? Only God knows, and it is not up to me to decide for Him. I write here merely to uphold the dogmatic principle of the possibility of such cases today, without admitting that all, or even a significant number of those who are in such circumstances will achieve salvation through justification.” (Catholic Research Institute, 2000).
The MHFM is rejecting the baptism of desire (Council of Trent etc) and criticizing a priest who says that a person can be saved with the baptism of water if God chooses and that all such cases are hypothetical for us.
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Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 18, quoting from Fr. Tanquery with approval: “Necessity of means, however, is not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In certain particular circumstances, for example, in the case of the invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership in the Church can be supplied by the desire for this membership. It is not necessary that this be explicitly present; it can be included in a willingness and readiness to fulfill the will of God. In this way those who are outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.”
This does not mean that everyone does not have to de facto enter the Church formally, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, for salvation. (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II). De facto everyone needs to enter the church with no exceptions.
The problem is that the MHFM considers the Baptism of Desire as de facto and knowable in the present times and so it contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says there are no exceptions, and everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation.
The MHFM says :
Well, I guess we now know why Fr. Vaillancourt loves baptism of desire so much. It’s because Fr. Vaillancourt believes in salvation outside the Church and is not even Catholic. For a time he even had a warning about our material at the back of his chapel; but, as we see above, it’s quite clear whose material one must be on guard against. Fr. Vaillancourt typifies the “traditionalist” and sedevacantist priests who deny the salvation dogma.
The Baptism of desire is always hypothetical for us and de facto only for God.
We know that the Baptism of desire can only be accepted in principle ( dejure) and it is never de facto for us, so how can it be an exception ?
The MHFM states
‘ that there is baptism of desire in any way, shape or form (see the book for more details). On page 17 Vaillancourt indicates that Buddhists, pagans and Muslims could be saved, and that such an idea isn’t ruled out by Catholic teaching:
De facto we do not know any case on earth of someone who does not need the Baptism of water and Catholic Faith. De jure ( in principle) it is possible that known only to God, there could be an Indian Buddhist etc saved. He could have faith, charity and the desire and God could send a preacher to him or send someone to baptize him with water.
The MHFM is rejecting the baptism of desire (Council of Trent etc) since they mistake it for being as real for us as the baptism of water.
Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 17: “Are there any more ‘good faith’ pagans in existence? Is it possible for the Communists of China or the faithful adherents of Buddhism and Mohammedism of the Near and Far East to either have never heard the Gospel, or else had the Gospel presented to them in an erroneous light?... Can the Chinese Communist, or the Indian Buddhist or the Pakistani Muslim be included in such a consideration [of invincible ignorance]? Only God knows, and it is not up to me to decide for Him. I write here merely to uphold the dogmatic principle of the possibility of such cases today, without admitting that all, or even a significant number of those who are in such circumstances will achieve salvation through justification.” (Catholic Research Institute, 2000).
De facto we donot know any case on earth of someone who does not need the Baptism of water and Catholic Faith. De jure ( in principle) it is possible that known only to God, there could be an Indian Buddhist etc saved. He could have faith, charity and the desire and God could send a preacher to him or send someone to baptize him with water.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/most-holy-family-monastery.html
ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY RECTOR REJECTS CHURCH TEACHING ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS REPRESENTED THE VATICAN AT FAILED TALKS WITH THE SSPX
The Dominican Rector of the Angelicum , University of St.Thomas Aquinas, Rome, Fr.Charles Morerod O.P who rejects the Church teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus represented the Vatican and the Catholic Church in failed talks with the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) recently.
Fr. Morerod who never answers posts from this blog e mailed to him and the faculty, spoke on No Salvation Outside the Church according to a report on the internet.
FRIDAY, APRIL 29th
2:00 PM : Fr. Charles Morerod, O.P., Rector of the Angelicum and Secretary of the International Theological Commission
'No Salvation Outside the Church': Understanding the Doctrine with Thomas Aquinas and Charles Journet.
St. Thomas Aquinas and the Church:Theo-Centric Ecclesiology,A Theological Symposium, April 29th-30th, 2011
(Pontifical Faculty of the Immaculate Conception,Dominican House of Studies,487 Michigan Avenue, NE Washington, DC 20017 202-495-3836 )
He represented the Vatican alongwith the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a Gregorian professor, in talks with the SSPX.
4. Can you describe the Roman panelists?
They are experts, in other words, theology professors who are also consulting members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. One can say that they are “professionals” in theology. One is Swiss, the Rector of the Angelicum, Fr. Morerod, O.P., another is a Jesuit who is somewhat older, Fr. Becker; another is a member of Opus Dei, the Vicar General, Msgr. Ocariz Braña; then Archbishop Ladaria Ferrer, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and finally the moderator, Msgr. Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Ecclesia Dei Commission.http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/02/vatican-sspx-talks-collapse-none-of-two.html#links
The rector of the Angelicum also encourages Fr. Robert Christian to teach outside the Church there is no salvation with no texts from Vatican Council II to support his view. I attended an ecclesiology class at thet Angelicum when he spoke on this subject. He has the approval of the Rector.http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2009/12/angelicum-university-priest-professor.html#links
Fr.Morerod teaches that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy and the baptism of desire is de facto and known to us humans . He will not affirm Cantate Domino, Council of Florence nor teach that Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II is in accord with this ex cathedra dogma.
This is all contrary to St.Thomas Aquinas who taught that de facto everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation, the Church being the only Ark of Noah that saves in the flood and in principle ( de jure) and known only to God there could be the man in the forest in invincible ignorance to whom God will send a preacher or someone to baptize him with water.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/angelicum-university-rector-rejects.html
VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Fr. Davide Carbonaro
We do not know any case of a non Catholic saved by Jesus and the Church said Father Davide Carbonaro. Vatican Council II affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and does not contradict it.
Father Davide is the former Parish Priest at the Church of Santa Maria in Campitelli in the centre of Rome. He was speaking with me today afternoon .
He said those who are saved by Jesus and the Church were known to God only and God could save them in the manner he wished even though they were not visible members of the Catholic Church.
However this would be known to God only so it did not contradict the dogma Cantate Domino on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
San Giovanni Leanardi the founder of his community,L'Ordine della Madre di Dio, also believed in extra ecclesiam nulla salus said the Parish Priest. He understood the dogma as saying everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church for salvation.
Those who are saved implicitly are known only to God. Hence those saved with the baptism of desire, a good conscience, in imperfect communion with the Church, in invincible ignorance etc are known only to God. So Vatican Council II does not contradict the ex cathedra dogma Cantate Domino which indicates everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Catholic Church, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, to go to Heaven.
San Giovanni Leonardi was the founder of Propaganda Fide.
-Lionel Andrades
___________________________________
Parrocchia di Santa Maria in Portico in Campitelli,SANTUARIO MARIANO E LEONARDINO,
Piazza Campitelli, 9,
00186 Roma Italia
Tel. e fax Parrocchia:
06.68 80 39 78
Tel. e fax Comunità:
06.68 74 28 5
E-mail:
santamariainportico@vicariatusurbis.org
___________________________________
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http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/vatican-council-ii-affirms-cantate.html
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Its a mortal sin to deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is a sacrilege to receive the Eucharist in this condition- Fr. Gabrielle, priest of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/its-mortal-sin-to-deny-dogma-extra.html#links
THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF- Fr.George Puthoor
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/there-is-no-baptism-of-desire-that-we.html#links
THERE IS NO DE FACTO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE KNOW OF-Fr. Masimilliano dei Gaspari F. I
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/05/there-is-no-de-facto-baptism-of-desire.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/vatican-council-ii-affirms-cantate.html
Thursday, July 28, 2011
VENERABLE POPE PIUS XII SAID ALL NON CATHOLICS NEED TO ENTER THE CHURCH WITH NO EXCEPTION TO AVOID HELL
Venerable Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 affirmed the ‘rigorist interpretion’ of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which indicated that all non Catholics with no exception need to formally enter the Church for salvation. The propaganda against Pope Pius XII is continued by Griff Ruby in The Art of Scholastic Dishonesty Part Fifteen, They Fought the Bad Fight
http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/10Jan/jan21str.htm
The final reason Fr. Shmaruk gave for his position involves a profound irony. In advancing his extra ecclesiam stand, Fr. Feeney played an "...unwitting role in bringing the Church to an historical and theological turning point - that letter of Pope Pius XII (Suprema haec Sacra) putting on record in a definitive manner the recognition that people of good will outside the Roman Catholic community can also find salvation for themselves…In my estimation this document of Pius XII set the stage for the Ecumenical Movement in the Catholic Church and, in fact, for the ecumenical theology declared by Vatican II."-Griff Ruby
In the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 (Suprema haec Sacra) Venerable Pope Pius XII referred to ‘ the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’. The text of the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence ex cathedra on extra ecclesiam nulla salus indicates that all non Catholics in Boston need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This was exactly what Fr.Leonard Feeney taught. So Pope Pius XII supported Fr. Feeney in the Suprema haec Sacra.
The Letter also mentions that in ‘certain circumstances’ a non Catholic an be saved with the baptism of desire. It was known for centuries, common sense says, implicit salvation does not conflict with the dogmatic teaching that every one on earth need to be an explcit, formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/venerable-pope-pius-xii-said-all-non.html#links
WHAT I BELIEVE AS A CATHOLIC AND WHICH IS THE OFFICIAL TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BEFORE AND AFTER VATICAN COUNCIL II
I believe the Catholic Church teaches that all non Catholics with no exception need to enter the Catholic Church through Catholic faith and the baptism of water, for salvation, to avoid the fires of Hell and to go to Heaven. This is what I believe.
Here is the dogma on extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined three times by three different Church Councils.
Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Cantate Domino,Council of Florence,Pope Eugene IV (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -from the website Catholicism.org
VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS THE DOGMA
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II (Note: All need the baptism of water for salvation and Catholics only give baptism to adults with Catholic Faith. So Ad Gentes 7 is saying that all people need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.)
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CATECHISM AFFIRMS DOGMA
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 (Note : ‘which men through Baptism as through a door’ was a term used by the Church Fathers for the rigorist interpretation of outside the church there is no salvation).
CCC 845.To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.-Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845 Catechism of the Catholic Church
DOMINUS IESUS AND THE DOGMA
This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.-Dominus Iesus 20 (Note: Salvation is open for all however to receive this salvation they need to enter the Church).
Ordinary Magisterium
Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia )
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Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum )
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter )
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus )
“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae )
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane )
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum )
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos )
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
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OBJECTIONS
We know that those saved implicitly are known only to God so this is not in conflict with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says every one needs to be a formal, explicit member of the Catholic Church for salvation. So Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance) does not contradict the dogma. There is nothing in Vatican Council II or the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contradicts the dogma. We can never know who is saved through Jesus and the Church (CCC 846) is in partial communion with the Church or saved by the Word of God.
Secondly everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church. Those who know about Jesus and the Church and yet do not enter or those in invincible ignorance will be judge personally by God. We cannot judge who these cases are.De facto everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church for salvation.
Thirdly Venerable Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 affirmed the ‘rigorist interpretion’ of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which indicated that all non Catholics with no exception need to formally enter the Church for salvation. In the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 Venerable Pope Pius XII referred to ‘ the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’. The text of the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence ex cathedra on extra ecclesiam nulla salus indicates that all non Catholics in Boston need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This was exactly what Fr.Leonard Feeney taught. So Pope Pius XII supported Fr.Leonard Feeney in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
The Letter also mentions that in ‘certain circumstances’ a non Catholic can be saved with the baptism of desire. It was known for centuries, common sense says, implicit salvation does not conflict with the dogmatic teaching that every one on earth need to be an explicit, formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation.
I have provided references from Magisterial texts which show that the Catholic Church affirms the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known to the Councils, popes and saints.
I believe that the Catholic Church teaches that everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church through Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, for salvation.
Lionel Andrades
E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com
Blog: http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://it.youtube.com/LionelAndrades
Thursday, November 24, 2011
ECCLESSIOLOGY OF ENGLISH BISHOPS HIT BY TWO ERRORS 1) VISIBLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE 2) FR.LEONARD FEENEY EXCOMMUNICATED FOR THE SAME VIEW AS POPES, SAINTS AND DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION
English bishops use an interpretation of Magisterial texts which contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction as taught to Catholic seminarians.
It is assumed by the bishops that those saved among Christians and non Christians, in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, with ‘the seeds of the Word’ or in imperfect communion with the Church, are known to us in the present times and this is the ordinary way of salvation. They imply that this is an exception to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. So Protestants just have to believe in Jesus and they are saved in their religion through this ordinary means.This is a rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).Vatican Council II indicates that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (LG 14, AG 7).
It is contradictory for the bishops to say:
De facto every one needs to be an explicit, visible member of the Church of salvation and defacto non Catholics in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire can be saved without the baptism of water.
It is not contradictory when they say:
Defacto every one with no exception needs to enter the Church as taught by ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible statement’.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)
De jure a person can be saved with the baptism of desire.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII)
It is contradictory when they believe:
De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation.(Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).
De facto some people can be saved in invincible ignorance.(Lumen Gentium 16).
It is not contradictory when they believe:
De facto all people need to enter the Catholic Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. (Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 14,Ad Gentes7).
De jure some people can be saved in invincible ignorance.(Lumen Gentium 16).
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
English bishops use an interpretation of Magisterial texts which contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction as taught to Catholic seminarians.It is contradictory to common sense , even a lay man can notice, to imply that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are de facto known to us
Due to the contradiction in the interpretation young candidates with a religious vocation in England have to say everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation in the present times but there could be defacto exceptions like those saved with the baptism of desire. The baptism of desire is assumed to be visible and so is an exception to the dogma.The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/vocation-director-in-southwarkengland.html
If the baptism of desire was implicit for candidates it would not contradict the dogma, it would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma. It is an error for the bishops to interpret those saved with the baptism of desire as being de facto known to us.
Candidates with a religious vocation in England would also have to accept that Fr. Leonard Feeney was ‘condemned’ for holding the same view as the popes, including Pope Pius XII, who referred to 'the dogma', the saints and the dogma itself. Since the bishops assume that Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there are no exceptions to the dogma and that the baptism of desire etc are not exceptions. For the bishops the baptism of desire is defacto and explicitly known to us and so Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong. So were the popes and saints.
(a) No one knows of a particular case of someone being saved with the baptism of desire even though it is being assumed as being visible (b) Fr.Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the thrice-defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They were all saying that de facto every adult needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. They did not consider the baptism of desire as explicit but knew that it was always implicit.
They imply that Vatican Council II has changed our concept of Church since those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc are visible and de facto known to us in the present times.
-Lionel Andrades
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
CATHOLIC BISHOPS CONFERENCE OF ENGLAND AND WALES SAYS THOSE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE, INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE VISIBLE TO US
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-bishops-conference-of-england.html
ECUMENISM OF THE ENGLISH BISHOPS CONTRARY TO VATICAN COUNCIL II
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/ecumenism-of-english-bishops-contrary.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/ecclessiology-of-english-bishops-hit-by.html
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